Why no old vine cabernets?

Guest - Geoff · Post by **Guest - Geoff** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:38 pm

Noticed plenty of 100+ yr-old shiraz vines in Australia but no old vine cabs? Why is this so pls?

Even goin thru Parker's Bordeaus book most chateaux's cab vines are 25-35 years old, with only Mouton being over 40 with 45 yr old vines.

Why is this so pls? (and pls excuse my naivety if the answer is simple - I am relatively new to all this)

TIA

GraemeG · Post by **GraemeG** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:18 pm

Geoff,
I think this is attributible to the fact that there was very little cabernet planted in Australia before the 60s. There are, I think, some very old patches of cabernet vines in one corner of Penfolds Kalimna vineyard (the golf course block, is it? - the grapes were largely the source for the Block 42 Cabernet of 1996), but in general, Australia's viticultural heritage was built on shiraz, semillon and riesling.

In fact Penfolds discontinued the Bin 707 wine from 1970-1975 due to a shortage of quality cabernet material (and re-directed what they had to building up Bin 389).

There are very few remaining old vines in any areas of Europe devastated by phylloxera in the late 19th century. In Bordeaux as well, the shifting patterns of ownership, the fortunes of war, and large periods of economic malaise for the wine industry during the 20th century caused many vineyards to be replanted at various times with higher-yielding clones. So truely 'old vines' - in the sense of 100yo+ - are pretty thin on the ground for a range of reasons.

cheers,
Graeme

Adair · Post by **Adair** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:24 pm

GraemeG wrote:Geoff,
I think this is attributible to the fact that there was very little cabernet planted in Australia before the 60s. There are, I think, some very old patches of cabernet vines in one corner of Penfolds Kalimna vineyard (the golf course block, is it? - the grapes were largely the source for the Block 42 Cabernet of 1996), but in general, Australia's viticultural heritage was built on shiraz, semillon and riesling.

In fact Penfolds discontinued the Bin 707 wine from 1970-1975 due to a shortage of quality cabernet material (and re-directed what they had to building up Bin 389).

There are very few remaining old vines in any areas of Europe devastated by phylloxera in the late 19th century. In Bordeaux as well, the shifting patterns of ownership, the fortunes of war, and large periods of economic malaise for the wine industry during the 20th century caused many vineyards to be replanted at various times with higher-yielding clones. So truely 'old vines' - in the sense of 100yo+ - are pretty thin on the ground for a range of reasons.

cheers,
Graeme

Great reply Graeme - Grange would have been Cabernet if there was enough of the stuff back in 1951.

However, Geoff, I am most intrigued that Mouton vines are only 40-45 years old. I thought the ownership of the 1st Growths were consistent over the past 100 or so years. Can anyone else shed light on this?

On the topic, how old is the oldest Coonawarra Cabernet? I thought the Treasure Chest series was Cabernet although I could be wrong.

Adair

Attila · Post by **Attila** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:35 pm

My understanding is that Cabernet Sauvignon is a fairly new hybrid grape from the 19th century, the cross between Sauvignon Blanc (believed from Chateau Margaux) and Cabernet Franc (from Lafite). Therefore the grape variety itself is not old, plus phylloxera wiped them all out just before the last century and the american rootstocks simply do not last more than 50 years, that's why the 'old' vines at Mouton are only as old as they are. In France many 30 years old cabernet vines become 'old vines' by mention.
Cheers,
Attila

PaulV · Post by **PaulV** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:42 pm

Also there was a huge black frost in the early 1950's which wiped out I think over half the grape vine in the main medoc areas.

Cheers

paulV

Adair · Post by **Adair** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:47 pm

Attila wrote:My understanding is that Cabernet Sauvignon is a fairly new hybrid grape from the 19th century, the cross between Sauvignon Blanc (believed from Chateau Margaux) and Cabernet Franc (from Lafite). Therefore the grape variety itself is not old, plus phylloxera wiped them all out just before the last century and the american rootstocks simply do not last more than 50 years, that's why the 'old' vines at Mouton are only as old as they are. In France many 30 years old cabernet vines become 'old vines' by mention.
Cheers,
Attila

Thanks for the reply Attila.

Isn't it amazing how fast Cabernet Sauvignon has taken over the world!?

I wonder if there is any Cabernet Sauvignon on its own rootstock around the world? There must be. And how old it is?

Adair

DJ · Post by DJ » Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:21 pm

Adair wrote:
I wonder if there is any Cabernet Sauvignon on its own rootstock around the world? There must be. And how old it is?

Adair

http://www.uncork.com.au/tidbits14.htm

I only did a Google search to find a history of Cab Sav - record of Cab Sav in Australia at Camden in 1820 according to this.

I'd be surprised if there wasn't alot of Cab Sav on its own root stock arround the world - as I understand it - normally only have grape vines on other root stock when phyloxera is a problem (especially in the past, much cheaper to root cuttings than to graft) .

I think Turkey Flat's Cab Sav's back label talks about at 70 year old vines.

Kalimna Cab Sav could be older

Davo · Post by **Davo** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 1:58 am

Kalimna Cab Sauv was planted in 1892 and the vines survived phyloxera so still have some input into Bin 707.

Interesting articles on the variey can be found at these sites:-

http://www.bordeaux.com/eg_cabernet.html

http://www.winepros.org/wine101/grape_p ... b-sauv.htm

as well as at Penfolds homepage.

simm · Post by **simm** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:12 am

Adair wrote:
Attila wrote:My understanding is that Cabernet Sauvignon is a fairly new hybrid grape from the 19th century, the cross between Sauvignon Blanc (believed from Chateau Margaux) and Cabernet Franc (from Lafite). Therefore the grape variety itself is not old, plus phylloxera wiped them all out just before the last century and the american rootstocks simply do not last more than 50 years, that's why the 'old' vines at Mouton are only as old as they are. In France many 30 years old cabernet vines become 'old vines' by mention.
Cheers,
Attila

Thanks for the reply Attila.

Isn't it amazing how fast Cabernet Sauvignon has taken over the world!?

I wonder if there is any Cabernet Sauvignon on its own rootstock around the world? There must be. And how old it is?

Adair

Hi Adair,

I think the latter part of Atilla's reply also explains why there are also labels in Australia eg. Normans 'Old Vine' Cabernet & Shiraz that don't really describe what could be called that 'old'.

Isn't the Tahbilk Reserve Cabernet from quite old vines? Their Shiraz is purported to be from stock pre-Phylloxera. I assume the Cabernet is not nearly as old but do you have any idea how old the it is there? Would ask them directly but I don't have the time to research (on someone elses comp.).

All the best,