Torbreck Wines
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Dennis
Torbreck Wines
Does anyone find it strange that Torbreck offers its low production wines to retailers ahead of its mailing list subscribers? Does it send the wrong message? Does anyone else do this?
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Noel B
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Mike Hawkins
- Posts: 2798
- Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:39 am
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bacchaebabe
- Posts: 1222
- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:04 pm
- Location: Sydney
I'm on the torbreck mailing list and have never not got what I wanted. Everything has always been on offer and at better prices than retail usually.
I'm sure the mailer with the new releases will be out soon.
With last year's releases, the inital mailer came out and then another one came out mid year with the current releases still available. It was only after this that I started to notice a lot more Torbreck available at retailers, including the larger ones.
I've never noticed any of the other smaller / boutique / cult winerys doing this either. The larger ones are of course a force unto themselves.
I'm sure the mailer with the new releases will be out soon.
With last year's releases, the inital mailer came out and then another one came out mid year with the current releases still available. It was only after this that I started to notice a lot more Torbreck available at retailers, including the larger ones.
I've never noticed any of the other smaller / boutique / cult winerys doing this either. The larger ones are of course a force unto themselves.
Cheers,
Kris
There's a fine wine between pleasure and pain
(Stolen from the graffiti in the ladies loos at Pegasus Bay winery)
Kris
There's a fine wine between pleasure and pain
(Stolen from the graffiti in the ladies loos at Pegasus Bay winery)
I think it all comes down to demand. If Torbreck could sell all their wine through their mailing list they would. By selling to retailers, they in effect have to sell it to them at a wholesale price thus reducing their profits per bottle. Hence, would not make very good business sense to sell to retailers if they didn't have to.
Look at Mount Mary. It is almost impossible to find at a retail level. Instead they sell nearly all through their mailing list. why because they can sell it all. I think it is going to be very hard for Torbreck to justify the prices they charge. In the coming years (or after a bad parker review) I think it is going to get much tougher.
Do I like the wines? Yes
Would I buy them (and I can)? No becaue I don't think they are worth it.
Just my 2 cents
Anthony
Look at Mount Mary. It is almost impossible to find at a retail level. Instead they sell nearly all through their mailing list. why because they can sell it all. I think it is going to be very hard for Torbreck to justify the prices they charge. In the coming years (or after a bad parker review) I think it is going to get much tougher.
Do I like the wines? Yes
Would I buy them (and I can)? No becaue I don't think they are worth it.
Just my 2 cents
Anthony
Good wine ruins the purse; bad wine ruins the stomach
Spanish saying
Spanish saying
I agree with Anthony..the prices for their wines are OTT.How will they justify them in a bad vintage? I think the fact that they are available at retail is a sign they have started to see the signs of their bubble bursting.
This is the reason Rockfords gets my money not Torbreck..even with the increase in price of BP over the last few years (which i assume would be largely caused by increases in prices paid to growers for premium grapes) is still very reasonable compared to overpriced "Trophy" wines such as RunRig.
Greed has been the undoing of many a winery..i bet Torbreck will suffer for it's pricing.
Cheers
Paul
This is the reason Rockfords gets my money not Torbreck..even with the increase in price of BP over the last few years (which i assume would be largely caused by increases in prices paid to growers for premium grapes) is still very reasonable compared to overpriced "Trophy" wines such as RunRig.
Greed has been the undoing of many a winery..i bet Torbreck will suffer for it's pricing.
Cheers
Paul
counter-rant
Paul,
With all due respect, I don't think Anthony said the prices were over the top (even though he may in fact think so), he said he didn't think the wines were worth the money.
In this vein, whilst VFM will always be subjective, if someone drinks these wines and enjoys them as much as other top Rhone varietal offerings from France or the USA then the fact is that in the global market they can and will be able to achieve sales at this price. Just look at the top offerings from JL Chave, Guigal, Chapoutier and so on (not to mention prices for SQN, Araujo and others from the US), which command much higher prices, also in both poor and good vintages).
They will achieve sales, and do become trophy wines purely as a result of top marketing (eg Cali cults, Grateful Palate, etc), or through top performance. Pretty well every review of the Run Rig I have read would confirm it is a top wine. Yes, a slump in market demand could mean that pricing adjustment is required, however time will tell. Limited production of these babies may just mean that the wines will continue to sell.
All wines eventually become available at retail, whether through wholesale channels or private means - even Cali cults with similar limited production to Torbreck. I don't think that this means their bubble has burst - it's more a factor of wanting wider distribution (eg to those not fortunate enough to be on the mailer), or the result of enterprising retailers.
I too am a firm supporter of Rockford wines, and solidly admire their philosophy. I am a stonewaller, and will buy the wines year in year out regardless of vintage as long as they let me (provided I have the cash on hand!). That still doesn't help any poor muggins not on the list who has to pay similar prices to Torbreck anyway to drink the BP. I saw $130 for the '98 BP in recent Langtons auctions - I love the wine, but it ain't worth that. I'm not happy to have to pay the prices charged for Torbreck's top wines, so of late I haven't. For buyers like me, Torbreck offers wines like the Steading, which is IMO a tasty wine.
I'd honestly be interested to hear your comments on Chris Ringland's pricing increases for the Three Rivers wines, given his relationship with Rockford. He probably feels more bemusement than greed at the prices he can charge - how is this different to Torbreck's situation?
As an aside, and not directed at any poster in particular, Torbreck continually seems to get slammed on this board for whatever reason. I'm likewise continually surprised at the vehemence directed at the winery. Move on people - there are plenty more wines out there for the drinkin'...
With all due respect, I don't think Anthony said the prices were over the top (even though he may in fact think so), he said he didn't think the wines were worth the money.
In this vein, whilst VFM will always be subjective, if someone drinks these wines and enjoys them as much as other top Rhone varietal offerings from France or the USA then the fact is that in the global market they can and will be able to achieve sales at this price. Just look at the top offerings from JL Chave, Guigal, Chapoutier and so on (not to mention prices for SQN, Araujo and others from the US), which command much higher prices, also in both poor and good vintages).
They will achieve sales, and do become trophy wines purely as a result of top marketing (eg Cali cults, Grateful Palate, etc), or through top performance. Pretty well every review of the Run Rig I have read would confirm it is a top wine. Yes, a slump in market demand could mean that pricing adjustment is required, however time will tell. Limited production of these babies may just mean that the wines will continue to sell.
All wines eventually become available at retail, whether through wholesale channels or private means - even Cali cults with similar limited production to Torbreck. I don't think that this means their bubble has burst - it's more a factor of wanting wider distribution (eg to those not fortunate enough to be on the mailer), or the result of enterprising retailers.
I too am a firm supporter of Rockford wines, and solidly admire their philosophy. I am a stonewaller, and will buy the wines year in year out regardless of vintage as long as they let me (provided I have the cash on hand!). That still doesn't help any poor muggins not on the list who has to pay similar prices to Torbreck anyway to drink the BP. I saw $130 for the '98 BP in recent Langtons auctions - I love the wine, but it ain't worth that. I'm not happy to have to pay the prices charged for Torbreck's top wines, so of late I haven't. For buyers like me, Torbreck offers wines like the Steading, which is IMO a tasty wine.
I'd honestly be interested to hear your comments on Chris Ringland's pricing increases for the Three Rivers wines, given his relationship with Rockford. He probably feels more bemusement than greed at the prices he can charge - how is this different to Torbreck's situation?
As an aside, and not directed at any poster in particular, Torbreck continually seems to get slammed on this board for whatever reason. I'm likewise continually surprised at the vehemence directed at the winery. Move on people - there are plenty more wines out there for the drinkin'...
And Anthony, you mentioned:
"If Torbreck could sell all their wine through their mailing list they would. By selling to retailers, they in effect have to sell it to them at a wholesale price thus reducing their profits per bottle. Hence, would not make very good business sense to sell to retailers if they didn't have to. "
This is not necessarily true (ie 100% elective sales via mailing list). Some wineries do hold back wine for wholesale or export markets to give more exposure to their wines. They don't have to, but they do whether for prestige, expansion, diversification, or just to give winelovers across the country or globe a chance to drink their wine.
From my readings Halliday has in fact criticized even Rockford for this reason (ie not distributing more nationally) in the past.
"If Torbreck could sell all their wine through their mailing list they would. By selling to retailers, they in effect have to sell it to them at a wholesale price thus reducing their profits per bottle. Hence, would not make very good business sense to sell to retailers if they didn't have to. "
This is not necessarily true (ie 100% elective sales via mailing list). Some wineries do hold back wine for wholesale or export markets to give more exposure to their wines. They don't have to, but they do whether for prestige, expansion, diversification, or just to give winelovers across the country or globe a chance to drink their wine.
From my readings Halliday has in fact criticized even Rockford for this reason (ie not distributing more nationally) in the past.
Hi Kenzo,
good points and that is one of the great things about this forum, everyone is able to present their opinion.
However,I don't want to sound like a Torbreck basher but, to be honest, I don't think they are worth the money.
Some wineries may hold back stock for export, etc but I can't think of many of the top producers who happily hold back large quantities of their best wines for retailers. It would be comercial madness to do this for greater exposure. That is what Parker, Halliday and others do. Having your wine offered by numerous retailers doesn't really build the prestige of a brand either.
I have had countless emails offering the whole range of Torbreck, and the only wines that would probably interest me would be the cheaper ones, and even then you couldn't call them quaffers for the price.
Personnally I wouldn't buy them, that's not to say that many other people do and will continually do so. Wine is all about personal enjoyment. If you like a wine, then at the end of the day, thats all that really matters.
Many people here like Torbreck, many don't thats the beauty about wine.
cheers
anthony 
good points and that is one of the great things about this forum, everyone is able to present their opinion.
However,I don't want to sound like a Torbreck basher but, to be honest, I don't think they are worth the money.
Some wineries may hold back stock for export, etc but I can't think of many of the top producers who happily hold back large quantities of their best wines for retailers. It would be comercial madness to do this for greater exposure. That is what Parker, Halliday and others do. Having your wine offered by numerous retailers doesn't really build the prestige of a brand either.
I have had countless emails offering the whole range of Torbreck, and the only wines that would probably interest me would be the cheaper ones, and even then you couldn't call them quaffers for the price.
Personnally I wouldn't buy them, that's not to say that many other people do and will continually do so. Wine is all about personal enjoyment. If you like a wine, then at the end of the day, thats all that really matters.
Many people here like Torbreck, many don't thats the beauty about wine.
cheers
anthony
Good wine ruins the purse; bad wine ruins the stomach
Spanish saying
Spanish saying
Rob wrote:runrig...what's that! a semi-trailer?
well, I would rather drink BP than any of the Torbreck wine. Over priced, nothing special...one dimensional
Aren't you being a bit hard here? Seriously, could you please expand on why you think Torbreck wines are one dimensional or at least which dimension you think dominates Torbreck wines? I have not had many Torbrecks, at least not the top ones, and would be interested in your comments as they seem to differ extremely from most/all reviews I have read.
Thanks,
Adair
Adair wrote:Paul T wrote:Greed has been the undoing of many a winery..i bet Torbreck will suffer for it's pricing.
Paul,
Maybe I am having a mental blank, but could you list a few wineries that have been undone by greed? I am sure you could use Southcorp as an example but what else?
Thanks,
Adair
It is an interesting question "undone by greed" but can't argue that a few have gone under
Reynolds and Normans come to mind in the last little while