TV's - France vs Oz

[Phil Shorten]

Some brief notes from a tasting presented by yours truly last week.

Four pairs of different varieties, white and red - Riesling, Chardonnay, Syrah/Shiraz and Cabernet Sauvignon. Here goes....

Riesling

France - Schlossberg Riesling Grand Cru 2001 Albert Mann (Alsace)

Great start. Alluring nose, medium lemon yellow with tinges of green. On the palate, beautifully rich, with pear, citrus and touches of spice. Drinking superbly now. Very impressive.

Australia - "Mesh" Riesling 2002, Grosset-Hill Smith (Eden Valley)

Pale silver with just a hint of yellow. Very closed on the nose, and quite tight on the palate. Minerals (wet stones) and touches of citrus with noticeable acidity. Quite backward.

Round 1 to France, though there is improvement potential in the Mesh.

Chardonnay

France - Puligny Montrachet 2001, Benoit Ente (Burgundy)

Nice subtle wine. Stonefruit and spice on both the nose and palate, well integrated oak. A pleasure to drink. Good food wine as well.

Australia - Voyager Estate Chardonnay 2000 (Margaret River)

Deeping colour than the Burgundy - yellow gold. Quite obvious oak and ripe fruit on the nose. On the palate, the oak is better integrated, and there's buckets of ripe fruit, together with butterscotch. Quite good, but a tad obvious for mine.

Round 2 to France.

Syrah/Shiraz

France - Cornas "Le Vignon" 2000 Domaine Michel Perraud (Rhone Valley)

Initially very wild (brett) but calmed down a bit after decanting. Still, quite an animally nose, a touch feral with pepper prominent as well. Good sweet fruit, plus licorice and iodine. Very firm tannins confirm its youth.

Australia - Rockford Basket Press Shiraz 1999 (Barossa Valley)

Deep ruby/crimson in colour. Nice fruit dominated nose. On the palate, dry and even a touch austere (in a very good way). Very good concentrated dark berry fruit married with sensible oak, finishing with fine grained tannins. Good acidity. Excellent, perhaps the best structured young BP I've tasted. I wouldn't be surprised if this one develops better than the 96 and the 98.

Round 3 - Australia, comfortably.

Cabernet Sauvignon

France - Reserve de Leoville Barton 1998 (St Julien - Bordeaux)

The 2nd label of one of the most respected classed growths. Deep purple in colour. Decent nose of blackcurrent, plum and a slight leafiness. On the palate, already quite soft (after double decanting), medium+ bodied (this is no austere ultra dry wine), good ripe fruit - blackcurrant and dark chocolate. Good wine.

Australia - Katnook Estate Cabernet Sauvignon 1999 (Coonawarra)

More of a deep ruby to the Leoville Barton's purple. Very ripe fruit confirmed by its 14.5% ABV. The nose screams eucalytpus and mint, together with rich (if not necessarily typically Cabernet) fruit. These follow through on the palate, most notably, the wine's very rich structure. Quite hedonistic and a pleasure to drink now and over the next 3-5 years, but I don't see it as a keeper. I thought it was good, but others loved it and voted it wine of the night, by some distance.

Round 4 - Australia, in a canter.

There you go, the end result a 2-2 draw. For mine, the Albert Mann Riesling was the best white (loved it) and the 99 Basket Press the best red (only wished I had some parked away - if you do, leave it for at least 3 years, perhaps 5 before touching any).

Cheers
Phil

[David Lole]

Thanks Phil,

Just a few questions. How did you assemble the various combatants? Was it on price or availabilty or some other criteria? To me, it looks like the frogs didn't stand a chance with the calibre of the Aussie reds you put on.

[Phil Shorten]

David

It was a bit of a challenge to get comparable pairings. Where possible I tried to match price and quality level. The Rieslings both retail for just over £12. However the P-Montrachet was £21 compared to £12 for the VE. Likewise, the Cornas is just over £20, compared to £18 for the Basket Press (excellent value compared to some top end Aussie Shiraz (E+E Black Pepper, Eileen Hardy etc) which IMHO are verging on overpriced here in the UK. The Reserve de Leoville Barton was £18/£19 compared to around £13 for the Katnook.

When you look at it, the Aussies win hands down for QPR, though you still need to seek out better VFM labels.

Cheers
Phil

[Dingo]

Grosset Polish Hill 2002 would have won the battle!

[David Lole]

Phil,

Thanks for the reply.

I've drunk mutiple vintages of Mann's Schlossberg Riesling and always found it pretty smart, albeit a little forward. A recent tasting of 2002 Mesh seemed to have shut down somewhat compared to the more spectacular (floral/fruity/minerally) example I bought at release.

Whilst on this, I've just received a pre-arrival offer on Mann's 2001 & 2002 offerings. Apart from the 2001 Schlossberg, could you offer advice on the virtues of the 2002's listed below.

2001 Riesling Schlossberg - $34
2002 Riesling Schlossberg - $41 (big jump in price!)
2002 Riesling Furstentum - $41
2002 Tokay P-G Hengst - $42
2002 Gewurtztraminer Steingruber - $41

TIA

[DaveB]

Phil,

Thanks for the notes:
I had the 1998 Grange up against the 2000 Jaboulet "La Chappelle" and a 2000 Chapoutier " Le Pavillion" Ermitage last night.
The Grange was bloody good but seemed a bit one dimensional when put up against the Frenchies.
Any thoughts

Cheers

Dave

[barry]

Phil - good notes but u didn't qualify the comparison - tasting on the virtue of quality or price? If the former, the comparison was unfair given the top echelons of Oz wine vs pretty mediocre Frog stuff. That's not to say u compare Latour to Katnook but something like maybe a 3rd growth. If the latter, Oz will always shine.

[Noel B]

DaveB,

The 1998 Grange is all hype. Recently, I tried it alongside the recently arrivals of 2000 Bordeaux.

Petrus, Mouton Rothchild, Lafite Rothchild, Haut Brion, Latour, Margaux are all 100 pts. All my fellow guests agreed that we could only give the 1998 Grange 97 pts.

I was quite reluctant to open any of the French greats but what a night!

All the best,
Noel

[Phil Shorten]

Phil - good notes but u didn't qualify the comparison - tasting on the virtue of quality or price? If the former, the comparison was unfair given the top echelons of Oz wine vs pretty mediocre Frog stuff. That's not to say u compare Latour to Katnook but something like maybe a 3rd growth. If the latter, Oz will always shine.

Barry

As best possible I tried to match wines of similar quality brackets (and in several cases the Frenchies were a fair bit more expensive) at a not entirely dissimilar price range. A 3rd Growth with a bit of age (so that it wouldn't be aggressively tannic) would retail at 3 or more times the price of the Katnook Estate, and I wonder if that is an entirely fair or proper comparison. FWIW, the Reserve de Leoville Barton is a very good wine indeed and loses little from being a 2nd bottling as LB is one of the more consistent chateaux, year in year out.

I would also argue that it is not unfair to compare a Cornas (instead of a Cote Rotie or Hermitage) against Rockford BP. Cornas is a small appelation producing some excellent Syrah based wines. It just so happens that the BP is an outstanding wine and good value for money. Many other premium Australian Shiraz retail at well over £25 here (1998 E+E Black Pepper is £49.95, 2000 Fox Creek Reserve is £35.99), at which point value for money becomes questionable.

Getting back to the main point, I think that the pairs are reasonable matches of "very good premium Australian wines against very good premium French wines" even if I didn't cherry pick the very best Cru Classe Bordeaux or the very very best northern Rhones. Unfortunately budget constraints and availability didn't permit!!

Best regards
Phil

[Phil Shorten]

Phil,

Thanks for the notes:
I had the 1998 Grange up against the 2000 Jaboulet "La Chappelle" and a 2000 Chapoutier " Le Pavillion" Ermitage last night.
The Grange was bloody good but seemed a bit one dimensional when put up against the Frenchies.
Any thoughts

Cheers

Dave

Dave

FWIW, I have not tried any of these wines so I am not in a great position to comment. However, my own view would be that they are all so young that it would be difficult to draw much complexity from any of the wines.

My experience with better northern Rhone wines is that they really need to be laid down for at least several years to be of much interest as I find that they tend to be unyielding and a tad one dimensional!

I think it would be interesting to repeat your tasting of the same wines in 10-15 years time.

I think it is also fair to say that the three big Rhone producers - Chapoutier, Guigal and Jaboulet - are/have been overtaken by the many smaller producers when it comes to the best wines from the Rhone, north and south. The last Chapoutier wine I tried was their Chateauneuf-du-Pape, which was roundly agreed to be average, at the very best. Some of the contributors on the UK wine-pages forum also had little positive to say about the Chapoutier range.

As to Jaboulet, his lower-mid range wines seem to be very clunky and clumsy. Hopefully he's been keeping the standard up on the better wines though as I've got some 2001 Dom du Thalabert coming my way! His St Joseph is ordinary to say the very least....

Similarly, many of the Guigal wines (not talking of the single vineyard Cote Roties) are dilute and simply not up to scratch, particularly for the prices they command.

Hope these ramblings make some sense!

Best regards
Phil

[Phil Shorten]

Phil,

Thanks for the reply.

I've drunk mutiple vintages of Mann's Schlossberg Riesling and always found it pretty smart, albeit a little forward. A recent tasting of 2002 Mesh seemed to have shut down somewhat compared to the more spectacular (floral/fruity/minerally) example I bought at release.

Whilst on this, I've just received a pre-arrival offer on Mann's 2001 & 2002 offerings. Apart from the 2001 Schlossberg, could you offer advice on the virtues of the 2002's listed below.

2001 Riesling Schlossberg - $34
2002 Riesling Schlossberg - $41 (big jump in price!)
2002 Riesling Furstentum - $41
2002 Tokay P-G Hengst - $42
2002 Gewurtztraminer Steingruber - $41

TIA

David

I can't admit to being an Alsatian expert. However, I was taken by the Schlossberg - rich, spicy, slightly creamy, with very good fruit. I entirely agree with you re. it being quite forward. I think it is an early drinking wine, but that by no means diminishes the pleasure.

As the 2002 wines, I think this may be a vintage to "tread carefully". It was very wet in northern Europe during the 2002 ripening season and I suspect some varieties did okay (Cabernet Sauvignon on the Left Bank) and other might have struggled (Merlot in most parts of Bordeaux). As to Alsace 2002, I'm not sure. I'd recommend doing some research before buying though.

I definitely recommend the 2001 Schlossberg for drinking over the next 12 months to 2 years though - bloody nice wine in a different style to anything from Oz.

Cheers
Phil

[DaveB]

Thanks Noel and Phil,

There was a tasting in Sydney put on by a visiting group of around 20 Rhone Valley winemakers the day before yesterday.
I agree the lower end wines are a bit clunky but the top end stuff was stunning.
I managed to score a seat at the dinner at Quay after the tasting where Andrew Calliard cracked open the 1998 Grange for comparison. From talking to the wine-makers (Jean Michel Gerrin, Michel Jaboulet and Michel Chapoutier) they are quite aware that they have to increase quality at the lower end of their range to compete internationally.
Everyone is starting with stringent fruit selection, biodynamics, minimal intervention during the wine-making process....though I think Chapoutier maybe going a bit far with his "Geo-Acupuncture" concept of placing Stonehenge-like structures around the vineyard at sites chosen by a diviner walking around with a pendulum...
Anyways, I was very impressed with the wines.

Cheers

Dave

[Dennis]

DaveB,

The 1998 Grange is all hype. Recently, I tried it alongside the recently arrivals of 2000 Bordeaux.

Petrus, Mouton Rothchild, Lafite Rothchild, Haut Brion, Latour, Margaux are all 100 pts. All my fellow guests agreed that we could only give the 1998 Grange 97 pts.

I was quite reluctant to open any of the French greats but what a night!

All the best,
Noel

what a load of rubbish!

Seriously how can u make this statement with any credibility?

Esp. when every major wine critic (Halliday, Parker, Hooke, Tim White, Jeni Port, Philip White, Winestate, anybody who is anybody) has absolutely raved about this wine.

Methinks it is only people on this forum and that other Aus forum who like to be rebellious and diss the wine. Just face it - this is a GREAT wine from any country.

So it's till over hyped at 97 points to you? Gosh u must be hard to please! If u meant over priced I might argue differently.

And the argument of Grange vs a Cabernet 1st growth just doesn't hold water.

For what its worth the 98 and 96 Grange are two of the greatest Australian wines I have ever tasted.

One thing I notice on boards like this is the fervour with which some posters like to aggresively criticise famous wines - notably 98 Grange, previously 98 Hill of Grace et al. get over it.

That's my two cents worth.

[Guest]

Dennis,

No arguements....Grange is a fantastic wine..just showed very closed on the night.....but Noel is correct in his hype claim....the fervour associated with Grange is getting silly...worth $600..thats debateable...but then again 2000 Latour worth $1300 I dont think so...but the demand is there.

Cheers

[Noel B]

Dennis,

Major wine critics indeed! They are all humans just like us the normal drinkers. Yes, I read their reviews but you still have to taste the wines before you can comment on them.

I don't trust Halliday anymore especially after his Top 100 last Sunday's Weekend Australian recommendations. Vintage Cellars? What a load of cr*p!

The 1998 Penfolds Grange is very nice wine but yet doesn't feel complete. The marketing hype involved gets me down real bad. I had my initial 12 bottles from a broker at $410 per bottle.

We had a blind tasting of 12 Top Shiraz from OZ the first week. We rank the 1996 Grange and 1996 Balmoral Syrah ahead of the 1998 Grange. Maybe time will tell say in 10 years when the 1998 loses some of its tannic slick (baby fat). Then we can compare the 1998 Grange to the 2000 First Growths from Bordeaux.

I would seriously recommend that you broaden your taste and I help myself to another bottle of 1945 Lafite Rothschild tonight.

All the best,
Noel

[Guest in a bag]

1996 is surely a better wine? It has purity and vitality.

The 1998 seems simple and conjured. Like Yattarna....what a join the dots wine that is....fruit here....oak there....acid there...no harmony.

Anyway, the 1998 Grange tastes like a really great wine with no soul. What does that mean? All the components for an intellectual tasting but no taste of the spiritual. Taste a good year Chave or Burgundy or the like....a top Craiglee or Jasper Hill?...and it's easy to see.

Depends what you look for in wine. What is great to one......Just drink with people who agree with you.